Ep. 267: Boredom Triggers Dysregulation

When kids can't tolerate boredom, it's easy to forget to put on our X-ray vision goggles and chalk it up to too much screen time or even not enough gratitude. Our kids’ reaction to boredom triggers OUR watchdog brain! If we can invite our owl to come back, we will almost certainly see that boredom flips our kids’ nervous system into protection mode.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why boredom can trigger the nervous system to shift onto the protection pathway
• How vulnerability in the nervous system (whether from ADHD, autism, trauma, or any other reason a kid has a vulnerable nervous system) impacts a child's experience of boredom 
• Practical, nervous-system-informed ways to gradually build your child's boredom tolerance 

Read the full transcript at: RobynGobbel.com/boredom

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

So when your kids' behavior is baffling and yours is too, sometimes, yeah. I know. Let's take a break from all the baboozle here on the baffling behavior show.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Well, hey everybody, welcome. Maybe this is welcome back to another episode of the Baffling Behavior Show. It's me, your host, Robin Gobel. If we're meeting today for the first time, I'm the author of Raising Kids with Big Baffling Behaviors, the founder of the Baffling Behavior Training Institute, where I help professionals feel more capable, more confident, more have more capacity for working with families, with kids with the biggest, most baffling behaviors. And of course, I host this podcast, The Baffling Behavior Show. The episode I have been working on for today is actually probably one of those unique challenges that maybe pretty darn close to 100% of you are experiencing dealing with or have dealt with in the past with regards to your kids and probably actually maybe even in regards to yourselves at some time. So today's episode is about why kids with vulnerable nervous systems have a really hard time being bored, right? It seems as though, and you're not wrong about this, they are actually triggered by boredom. Now, here in the US, we are getting very, very close to summer break from schools, which means for a lot of you listening, not all of you, but for a lot of you listening, that might mean you're facing a couple months of trying to figure out a way to keep your kids' lives structured enough that they're not feeling bored. We also here in the US just had a long holiday weekend. And so if your kids go to, you know, a more traditional school setting, you may have just had an extra day or two off of school. And I know that days off of school can activate like a panic experience for so many of us because our kids are triggered by boredom, by unstructured time. Let's talk about why. Because when we understand the why, we get better ideas about what we can do to help. When our kids cannot tolerate being bored, when it feels like they need constant interaction or constant stimulation, we end up feeling triggered or overwhelmed, right? Like all we want is to take a break from such active and intensive parenting. Kids with vulnerable nervous system need more active parenting for longer, right? And sometimes we are just longing for a break from all of that, from the structure, the plans, the schedules, the constant active co-regulation. And it's like, oh my gosh, even just a 10-minute break would be so great. But it even a 10-minute break, you know, from constantly engaging with your kids can cause increased dysregulation. And then we get stuck in that cycle of, is that even worth it? Now, if you've been listening to the show for a while, you know that if I'm gonna use the word like triggered by what I'm really saying is our kids are having a bigger stress response to a stressor than what we would typically expect. And if uh the stress response system is getting activated, that means something's experienced as a threat, right? A stress. And the nervous shift is shifting into protection mode. Right. So when kids have a vulnerable nervous system and they shift into protection mode, it is often not a small shift where then their owl brain can stay engaged enough to be like, hey, is this a real problem? And then if it is a real problem, use an appropriate scoping skill to help kind of move through that problem. But with boredom, it for so many of our kids, it's activating a stress response that is much further down the protection mode pathway. So there is little to no ability for the owl brain to go, hey, is this a real problem? And then there's little to no ability for the owl brain to say, Oh, I know about this problem. I can use this coping skill to be okay. Or, hey, I know about this problem. It, I don't like it. It's uncomfortable, but it's not gonna last forever and I'll be okay until it's over, right? Those are all owl brain skills or thoughts. And for a lot of our kids, the experience is the experience of boredom is is shifting them so far the per down the protection mode pathway that the owl is really long gone. Now, y'all probably know or would agree with me that boredom is developmentally important. It is important that our kids develop the capacity to be with their boredom without, you know, urgently attempting to escape the boredom. Right. Boredom, the experience that we call boredom tends to activate or tends to emerge when the brain's default mode network, right, gets activated. And our default mode network activates as we shift away from being focused on what's happening externally to more to what's happening internally. And so the default mode network is going to shift into engagement as we lose stimulation from the outside world. It's the default mode network and the the state that is happening in the nervous system when the default mode network is really activated is important. This is where you know creativity emerges, brainstorming, problem solving, integrating new learning. This is a really important state for the brain and for the nervous system. And tolerating boredom, right? Practicing tolerating boredom builds the capacity for frustration tolerance. It is going to increase the capacity for self-regulation, it increases emotional resilience. And all of this really just comes back to the fact that doing being with a state that initially feels uncomfortable, like boredom, right? Shifting from there's so much external stimulation to there's not external stimulation, and now I'm with myself, right? As the nervous system and the brain can learn to be okay in that shift, that is an indication that we are growing the parts of the brain in the nervous system that also are responsible for things like our frustration tolerance, regulation, those kinds of things. My point, y'all, is as much as it seems really appealing to try to, we actually don't want to eliminate boredom. We want to help our kids build capacity to be with boredom. And it is very likely that if you're listening to this podcast, we have to do that in a titrated way. Anytime we want to build our kids' capacity for something, we have to try to find a way to make that experience occur in a way that the nervous system feels stressful, but not as like toxically stressful, right? Brain change brains change and grow, and nervous systems change and grow as we live kind of on the edge of our window of tolerance. But if we are too far past the edge of our window of tolerance too often and for too long, then we're not experiencing growth. So we always have to kind of find that sweet spot. How do we reduce stress, increase the window of tolerance enough that we can support our kids titrating being with an uncomfortable feeling? And the one we're talking about today is boredom. Unfortunately, there are many, many, many reasons why kids with vulnerable nervous systems experience boredom not just as boring, right? But experience boredom as threatening, scary, dangerous, right? And then it really pushes them far down the protection mode pathway. So really, really quick review, right? The nervous system always scanning three places inside, outside, between for cues of safety, danger, or life threat, and is essentially asking the question am I safe or and I'm I in danger? Safe, not safe, safe, not safe. The nervous system needs input to feel oriented and regulated. And it's using sensory information, social connection, movement, cognitive engagement. Those experiences can offer cues of safety to the nervous system because they are contributing to the felt sense of like I'm oriented here in the world. I'm me, I'm I exist, I have a relationship with what's happening around me. And then when that stimulation drops, right? When input decreases from the outside world, from the environment or from the relationship, when things are quieter in the outside world, the nervous system is losing some of those like orienting cues, and in a way becomes more connected to or more aware of the internal cues of safety or danger. And so for a lot of our kids, they hold a lot of cues of danger in their inner world, right? From their stream of the now and from the stream of the past. So as stimulation decreases from the external world, then our neurosception can maybe pay a little bit more attention to what's happening internally and the cues of the past can be felt as a lot louder. Not to mention the fact that losing input from experiences that are helping us feel like oriented and grounded and in our body, right? That losing some of that input can also feel quite dysregulating. Those can that can be a cue of danger too, as we start to lose that connection to like, oh, I'm real. I can feel me here in my body. I feel me in relationship to what's happening out here in the world. So then the nervous system will tip into protection mode, right? And kids with sensitized stress response systems don't just kind of tip into protection mode, they crash into it, right? They like fall off the cliff into it. And then we see protection mode behaviors that feel like they have absolutely nothing to do with what's actually occurring. And in some ways, from your perspective, it that those behaviors don't have anything to do with what's actually occurring because the behaviors have everything to do with what your child is experiencing, and you're not experiencing the same thing. So when the watchdog gets activated by boredom, we might see an increase or an escalation in like demands, right? I'm bored. There's nothing to do. Give me something to do. We might see an increase in behavior that is intended to increase stimulation, picking fights with siblings, with parents, with caregivers, that can increase stimulation, right? We can see maybe an increase in risky, impulsive, destructive behavior. Some of that's because we're further down the watchdog pathway, and watchdogs are more impulsive, risky, and destructive due to, you know, this the state of the watchdog. And those are also stimulation-seeking behaviors. And it's not uncommon for us to look at our child and to see what what seems like a physical manifestation of how they are unable to feel settled, right? Like we see a lot of agitation energy. We see kids maybe like just sort of like thrashing about or like constant movement, constant attempts to engage. And when attempts to engage come from protection mode, they tend to look just obnoxious and annoying, right? Which is exceptionally ironic because obnoxious and annoying behavior then puts us into protection mode. And then the purpose of that obnoxious and annoying behavior is it's not able to be successful, right? Because the further down protection mode pathway we are, the less available we are for connection to our child, and they're still not getting that need met, right? And this can turn into a big like catch 22, right? The more kind of obnoxious our kids get, the more in protection mode we get, the less we give connection, the more in connection mode or in protection mode our kids get. Possum behavior as a response to boredom might look more shut down, more la la land, right? More just like totally zoned out, uh, difficulty initiating, right? So they just lay there like floppy. I don't know what to do, right? And then you suggest things that are um, you know, in your opinion, quite stimulating. And they like can't even initiate shifting out of that possum place because they're so far down the possum mode pathway. I mean, we might just see like a flat affect, low energy, kind of looking what we would typically label depressed. We might see kids shift to finding stimulation in ways that require low energy output, like screens, video games, even reading, right? Like the body doesn't have to do much to receive a bunch of sensory input. And that can be a way to escape what feels like I don't know, intolerably quiet or just lacking stimulation. Now, if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you know that my specific area of expertise is kids who've experienced complex trauma and relational trauma, and that those experiences are what have contributed to or created their vulnerable nervous systems, um, created to their neurodivergent brains and nervous systems. And a lot of that information and a lot of that expertise that I have translates broadly to kids who have vulnerable nervous systems for all sorts of reasons. But let's talk specifically about just a couple. These are the ones I feel like I'm you know qualified to talk about. We can talk a little bit about kids with ADHD, a little bit about kids with sensory sensitivities, and then we'll talk just a little bit specifically about kids with trauma histories. Now, with the caveat that I am not an expert in the ADHD neurotype, what I do know is that ADHD brains have differences in dopamine regulation. And uh ADHD brains often need more stimulation to feel regulated and engaged, right? So stillness, quiet, it's not just boring, it's physically uncomfortable. The body isn't receiving the stimulation that it needs in order to find its way to kind of like homeostasis or baseline. Their threshold for needing input, right? Their threshold for stimulation is higher. It needs more. And so when stimulation gets low in circumstances which would often provoke promote, yeah, provoke boredom, right? This can be exceptionally uncomfortable for a ADHD brain. It is also true that the owl brain, some aspects of the owl brain, like task initiation, can be challenging for kids with ADHD neurotype. And so task initiation as a way to support oneself with the feeling of boredom, right? That feeling of like, I'm so bored, I don't know what to do. And then you like make a suggestion. And y'all make a like reasonable suggestion. It's not like, oh, you're so bored. You could take out the trash, right? I mean, I totally get the um desire to make suggestions like that, but that's also starting to engage other parts of the brain. Let's say that they're bored, I don't know what to do, and you like make a suggestion of something you know this child actually really enjoys, and it's like, oh no, I don't want to do that, right? That's a task, possibly a task initiation challenge. And task initiation can be challenging for kids with ADHD. It could also be possible that they have a lower responsive, under responsive reward system. So an activity needs to be like immediately engaging, immediately, or there can be this sense of it's not even worth it, it's too hard to get to the payoff. ADHD brains and nervous systems are already running closer to the edge of their window of tolerance. Boredom has the potential to really push them faster and further outside their window of tolerance. So the same amount of boredom that another brain would find, you know, maybe a little irritating or frustrating, that like, oh, I'm so bored. What should I do? Right. That same amount of boredom can shift an ADHD brain into like total dysregulation. And then, yeah, all the things that help you feel okay about being bored, all of those things get impossible to do. And then, of course, we know dysregulated kids. The more dysregulated a kid gets, the more reluctant they are to receive help. Okay, let's talk briefly about kids with sensory sensitivities. Now, a lot of autistic kids have sensory sensitivities. And a lot of kids who aren't autistic also have sensory sensitive sensitivities. Okay, so we're gonna talk about it through that lens. And kids with sensory sensitivities can be under or over responsive to stimulus. And so a nervous system that is quote unquote under responsive to stimulus needs more of it. Right? They need more coming into their nervous system for processing from the environmental world, like from the outside. Okay, and so when the environment is lacking or has decreased in sensory input, right? Less stimulation, this again could be a nervous system that now isn't getting what it needs to feel oriented, regulated, baseline, like homeostasis. And this is again when we can start to see some of those obnoxious behaviors that are coming from protection. Mode. So it can be like annoying attention-seeking behaviors. It can be um sensory-seeking behaviors like crashing, bumping, jumping, making a lot of noise, right? Difficulty shifting to states that can happen with kids who have some sensory sensitivities, right? So these are all indications that the nervous system is trying to regulate. And the reason it's trying to regulate is because of the drop in stimulation that it has, you know, that it is now experiencing, and they're attempting to kind of find their way back to homeostasis. In this perspective, the under-stimulation, the lack of stimulation coming in from the outside world becomes a threat to the nervous system. And so boredom is a response. The behaviors that are emerging from your kid experiencing boredom, those are responses to experiencing something that the brain and the body is actually labeling as dangerous, not just uncomfortable, but actually dangerous. And of course, when we think about kids with trauma histories, we know that when someone has a sensitized stress response system due to having a lot of experiences of unregulated, very unpredictable, too much danger, right? When someone's brain and nervous system has too much stress, too much danger, it's too unpredictable, it's too flooding, not enough co-regulation to come along with it, their stress response system gets sensitized. It gets kind of like oriented towards danger in the first place. And so any drop of in the stimulating experiences, the sensory experiences that are helping somebody stay really oriented and engaged, any drop in that is going to get really quickly like flagged by the danger, danger system in the nervous system. Like flagged as like, uh oh, here's a big problem. Then there they have a narrow window of tolerance. So one, less danger, danger cues are needed to make the brain go, uh-oh, danger, danger, danger. Okay. Then there is a narrow window of tolerance. So there's less capacity to be okay while also having some danger, danger cues, right? There's a smaller window of tolerance, so much more intense protection mode behaviors. And also the brain is constantly using experiences of the past to make sense of what's happening in the now and to initiate a response to what's happening in the now in an attempt to be okay. So if kids have a history where understimulation, boredom, lack of sensory input also led to danger, then that experience now could be being automatically tagged as very, very, very dangerous, even though it objectively speaking isn't, right? The brain is a prediction machine. It is operating almost completely out of predicting what's about to happen next. And it's doing that based on what's happened in the past. So if boredom and danger was ever tied together, or other experiences that are now similar to being bored, again, like lack of sensory stimulation, quiet, lack of engagement with a you know attachment or connection figure, and those experiences, which are now experienced in boredom, right? If those experiences were also, you know, accompanied by very dangerous or terrifying, you know, experiences, then in the now, lack of stimulation, lack of connection to a safe attachment figure, all of those experiences that are common in boredom are going to activate an intense danger danger signal, right? And our kids' boredom, right? They really want us to solve their problem. As dysregulation increases, we are looking to find safety again. And because of all the reasons that I just talked about, it is hard for a kid down the protective mode pathway because of boredom to find safety by themselves. Right. They're looking for stimulation, they're looking for engagement, they're looking for someone else to solve the problem. And so it becomes, you know, give me something to do. I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored in this like kind of obnoxious way. And then we start to feel in protection mode too, right? We can feel one, just overwhelmed by like, oh my gosh, like back off, give me a break here. It can also feel like this is coming from like an entitled place in your kid. You know, sometimes parents tell me that they almost they feel like their child's like um like circus monkey, like it's their job to always make sure their kid is totally entertained. And that starts to feel yucky. Like we kind of start to feel almost objectified, like we're being used for something, right? It can start to feel kind of manipulative. So there's all these other things that can like pulled into the experience of our kids trying to find our way out of boredom because of our own past experiences. We interpret it in a lot of different ways, as opposed to just, oh, my kid's in protection mode. Their nervous system is experiencing a lot of cues of danger, right? We're interpreting it through the lens of our own previous experiences. Then protection mode always activates protection mode in other people because our own neuroception is reading other people's protection mode as dangerous. So our immediate, initial, of course, response to someone being in protection mode is to get into go go into protection mode ourselves. And then we have to do the ones who are really carrying the load of how do I stay regulated? How do I stay okay in the face of my dysregulated child? And this is really hard, really labor-intensive work. And it's especially really hard and really labor-intensive if we have our own histories of vulnerable, you know, vulnerability in our nervous system. And of course, for those of us with our own histories of trauma and toxic stress, or for other reasons, struggle with boredom and unstructured time, right? I know a lot of you listening could probably really relate to that, then it is going to be that much harder to stay regulated, offer co-regulation to somebody who is essentially being triggered by the same thing that we get triggered by. There's a lot of complexity to why this happens, but essentially when we're with somebody who's triggered by the same thing that we can be triggered by, our internal boundaries tend to kind of collapse and we end up like merging with that person's dysregulation. So staying regulated, or even seeing the fact that we are dysregulated or seeing the fact that your kid is dysregulated becomes a lot harder. We just kind of shift into annoyed, irritated, even judgy, like, oh my gosh, my kid is such a spoiled brat, they can't tolerate being bored on, right? All of that is just about being in protection mode and having the owl having flown so far away, right, that we can't see that we're in protection mode. So, how do we increase our kids' capacity to be okay with a feeling of bored? Because this is a very important thing that uh someone needs to have as they navigate life. And also, it's good for the body, right? It's good for our brains, it's good for creativity. It's just good to be able to tolerate boredom. Okay, we have to think about this through the same lens as we would think about strengthening the stress response system, right? It's gonna be slow work, right? It is not gonna go in a like linear fashion, and we're not always gonna see progress. And sometimes we'll see like the opposite of progress. Like it'll feel like things are getting worse. I mean, y'all, it just kind of fits into everything else that we talk about here. And I think when we think about it that way, it's actually very helpful because it can start to feel really overwhelming if we're imagining all these different behaviors and think about how they all need worked on in different and unique ways. And they don't, right? So much of it is about simply strengthening that stress response system, growing the owl brain, right? Growing the owl brain with experiences of safety, connection, and co-regulation. And the more the owl brain strengthens, the more the nervous system will be able to be both okay and not okay. Right. Like I can be not okay and feel bored and I can be okay in that. Like I don't have to have a full-blown protection mode response. But also when we think about it through this lens, it becomes very, very, very clear that this is something our kids need support with. This is not a like throw them into the deep end and hope that they figure it out kind of a thing. Anytime we continuously blow very far past our kids' stress capacity, we are unintentionally causing more stress to their stress response system. So we have to find a way to bring that stress back, right? Like lower the stress and then slowly start to titrate and increase their capacity to tolerate that. So it could be true that there may be some need to try to decrease how often your kid is experiencing boredom, but also know that that's not a long-term solution. Right. We just have to find a way to help the nervous system rest. Then we can start to build it, right? Then you can start to increase how often you, you know, allow them to kind of hang out in the discomfort of boredom before, you know, helping to find, you know, helping them find the stimulation that would feel better for them. Our kids will need us to stay regulated. That doesn't mean calm. That doesn't mean it just feels great, but to stay regulated, keep our owl brain around when they are dysregulated by boredom, because that is giving their brain a new experience. It's a it will eventually um cause, you know, this prediction error, right? That a bored brain expects lots of discomfort, lots of dysregulation, lots of cues of danger. If we can be with them in our own not calm, regulated space, we're giving their brain something new and different. And then the brain accumulates experiences where the prediction becomes I don't like how I feel when I'm bored, but it's not avoidable and I can be okay in it. Okay. And the brain needs a lot of new experiences in order to predict that something new could happen. Otherwise, those old predictions, old expectations, like being bored is dangerous, right? Just continue to really, really run the show. Okay. So I know that it's super frustrating that everything keeps coming back to you. We have to stay regulated as much as possible. Not always, right? But being regulated isn't what gives us more capacity to respond to our kids in the way that uh that that would be best for them. I mean, it does, of course, do that, but that's not the only thing it does. Like being regulated is actually the intervention. It's actually the thing that causes the brain to change. It is that powerful. Until then, until we can get in a space of really supporting our kids and being okay when they're not okay, scaffold this, right? Structure unstructured time. Right? Like find a compromise between being fully scheduled, fully structured, and fully, you know, completely open-ended. Right. Um, decrease the container, decrease the time in which you're gonna expect your kid to be okay without much stimulation. So it could start with something like um, we have dinner in five minutes. And so five minutes before dinner, we are going to start to transition off of screens, offer whatever it is that's super stimulating. So giving the structure to like a timeline, like in five minutes, we'll do this other activity that's stimulating. And it starts really small, like for five minutes until, right? Let's pull off of stimulating activities like screens or whatever it is for your kid. And don't expect them to like this. Don't expect them to be like, oh, mom, thanks. Oh, dad, thanks, oh grandma, thanks for helping me learn to tolerate boredom. No, they're not gonna like it, they'll be uncomfortable in it. That's actually exactly kind of what we need to give their brain a new experience for them to be uncomfortable and dysregulated and mad or whatever, and for us to stay regulated. So you also have to scaffold yourself in this, right? Like you have to make sure that you're not setting your kid up by asking them to tolerate boredom in a situation where you don't have the capacity to also tolerate their displeasure at being bored. And over time, this can be expanded. This can be scaffolded. Also, y'all, we really want to make sure that we're not asking our kids to become different kids, right? Everybody has a different brain and everybody has different ways of navigating the increases and decreases of sensory stimulation coming from the outside world. And we become, as we become more um capable of taking care of ourselves, right, as we get older, we adjust our world to kind of meet our preferences. People with more ADHD brains or people with under or over-responsive sensory stimulation. I mean, when it's possible, they end up choosing like leisure activities, employment. You know, they end up creating a life for themselves that kind of matches their unique nervous system. And sometimes we're aware of that and sometimes we're not. And yes, it does require a lot of privilege for this to be true. But it's actually a great thing to teach your kid that you can honor your own unique nervous system. And if you're someone who needs a lot of stimulation, then let's help you have the agency to meet those stimulation needs. If you're somebody who needs very big decreases stimulation, let's help you find the agency to meet those stimulation needs. Like these are really important life skills. And they're also helping our kids, you know, notice that like it's okay to be them. It's okay to be them and not expect the whole world to change because of them. It's okay to be them. You know, notice ways that sometimes it's uncomfortable to be them in this world, and also notice ways that they have agency that can help themselves feel better in a world that isn't always meeting all of their needs. As our kids' capacity to tolerate boredom increases, you can start naming it. I notice your body's having a really hard time with this quiet time. That makes sense. Your brain really likes to be moving and doing. And when moving and doing, you know, stops or decreases, or you can't do it as much, that makes your watchdog brain get a little bit activated, right? We can start to really give them language for it. And the watchdog possum owl language, the reason I really like it so much is because it is not shaming, it's not pejorative, it's just neutral. And of course, we just have to pay attention to our kids' really unique self and really unique nervous system. I can give you all sorts of ideas, and they might be good for your kid or they might not, right? Like everybody's different. Everybody's different. And the main thread here in all of this is getting to know self, helping our kids get to know themselves, us getting to know this unique human in front of us so that we become more aware of what helps my kid feel more safe, connected, and regulated, as opposed to I have this like toolbox full of safety, connection, and regulating tools, and I'm just gonna use them randomly at my kid. That's a part of the process, but eventually we really want to get to the point of I have a lot of ideas. I can stay regulated enough to see my kids' unique needs and support them through that. Okay, y'all. So here's how we're gonna wrap up. We are not trying to get our kids to love being bored. We're trying to help their nervous systems learn that quiet, that decrease in stimulation is uncomfortable. It's a feeling that they might not like, but it is not dangerous. This helps our lens shift to seeing that this is all regulation work. This is about growing their owl brain. There isn't a lot that's unique about this. You already have these tools in your toolbox. I'm just helping you see how they relate to this specific challenge in your kid. Okay, so just know that it takes a lot of time to strengthen your kid's owl brain. And what you're helping them do is grow their owl brain so that their owl brain can stick around a little bit longer when there are cues of danger. And losing input from the environment is a cue of danger. What we want to do is help the nervous system grow in their capacity to receive cues of danger and not flip into protection mode. So we can do this overall with felt safety regulation and connection, and we can do this specifically to what is it about boredom that is activating an intense protection response. So you're not imagining it. Your kid probably is actually triggered by boredom. And there are ways to make sense of it so that we can make choices about how to help them in a way that actually strengthens their stress response system and doesn't just put more stress load on their nervous system and expect them to somehow figure out how to like grin and bear it through that significant stress load. If you are newer to the podcast, I am at what, like episode 265 or something. You can go to my website, robanggobel.com slash podcast, and there's a search bar. You can use that search bar to find episodes related to the topic that you're looking for. If you're totally new to this way of seeing behaviors, you can check out my book, Raising Kids with Big Baffling Behaviors, which is on an ebook, paperback audiobook. You can subscribe to my Start Here podcast, which um is a curation of some of my most requested and most helpful podcast episodes when starting to learn about a new way of seeing behaviors. So that's RobinGobel.com slash start here. And if you're listening to this episode on a day where the club is open and welcoming new members, you can come join us in the club. And the club is where we take all this information and make it practical. Like we make it useful. We can actually do these things in real life and in the club. Are growing our own capacity to stay regulated. We grow our own owl brain in the club, which is probably the most important thing to do when parenting a kid with really big baffling behaviors. All right, y'all. This was a fun episode to research and write and record. I hope you enjoyed it as well. I will be back with you again next week for another episode of the Baffling Behavior Show.