EP 279: Is There a Behavior Intervention Flowchart??

You want the flowchart. Of course you do! If X, then Y would be something to follow when there's no bandwidth left to think it through in the moment. But there isn't a flowchart, and this episode gets into why: stress capacity shifts by the hour, different nervous system states pull different memory networks online, and two nervous systems are shaping each other in real time, not just one. What there is instead is a map. Knowing both how to read it and how to adjust when something unexpected happens is crucial. 

In this episode you'll learn:

• Why a flowchart for dysregulated behavior is neurobiologically impossible
• Why the strategy that worked yesterday isn't working today
• Why the goal isn't figuring out the exact reason behind a behavior; it's staying curious instead of certain

Resources mentioned in this podcast:

• Stealing {EP 138} → RobynGobbel.com/stealing
• Lying, Stealing, Regression & Baby Talk {EP 222} → RobynGobbel.com/babytalk

Read the full transcript at: RobynGobbel.com/flowchart

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 2:15

So when your kids' behavior is baffling and yours is too, sometimes, yeah. I go. Let's take a break from all the man boozle. You're on the baffling behavior. I imagine every single one of you listening has had the experience of trying something with your kiddo and having it quote unquote work. Uh, we talk a lot about like what does work even mean, but let's just say you tried something, it worked. And then the next time you tried it again and it didn't work. Things go completely awry. And it feels very confusing and like this big giant game of luck and like whack-a-mole uh kind of on steroids, right? And in the midst of what is already so confusing and overwhelming about parenting a kid with a vulnerable nervous system, then there's this other aspect of like, who knows if this thing that worked before is ever gonna ever gonna work again. And then you kind of have your hopes up, like, oh, I found something that works, and then the next time it doesn't work, and that can feel pretty soul crushing. So that's what we're talking about today on this next episode of the Baffling Behavior Show. Welcome, everybody. I'm Robin Gobel, the host of the Baffling Behavior Show. I am the author of the USA Today best-selling book, Raising Kids with Big Baffling Behaviors. The newest guided journal to accompany Raising Kids with Big Baffling Behaviors is set to be published on September 21st. Y'all, we're getting closer and closer. I, as we get closer, I'm gonna be telling you more and more and more about that book because that book has been a real labor of love. And ultimately, what we ended up creating and handing over to my publisher for them to put into like book form and get out into the world has ultimately become something I feel really proud of. And I'm really excited to see how it can um support y'all and what you're doing with your kids in in a just a new and useful way. And I do think that part of what is offered in that new guided journal. In fact, I know it's not just I think it's offered, I know that one of the things that's really offered in that guided journal is connecting to the truth that there is no flow chart. And in fact, I was very clear with the bi publisher that I did not want to write a workbook. I would not write something that had the word workbook in the title, um, because I didn't want it to be a workbook. I wanted it to be invitations for curiosity and for reflection and for noticing and for a way to do that in an organized way that felt helpful to y'all. Um, because when there is so much chaos, I know it can feel really helpful to have somebody come in and just like package it up, like put it in a little container almost. And so I wanted the guided journal to do that, to feel like it organized things for you, gave you a little bit of a, well, yeah, just an organized, right? I mean, it's a book, so it goes page by page by page by page, although you don't have to do it that way, but you can if you want to. Yet at the very core of this work, right? And at the core of this parenting approach is the truth that, yeah, there is no rope, there is no flow chart. I cannot tell you what to do. I like to think instead that one of the things that I offer to y'all out there in the trenches doing this hard work every moment of every day is more like a map. And relational neuroscience, I think, gives us a map about, well, I usually say it gives us a map of like where we are now and where we are going. Um, because where we are now is what's happening in this exact moment, right? What's the activation level of arousal, dysregulation in this exact moment? That's where we are now. But where we are going is always the same place, right? Because interpersonal neurobiology says we are complex systems always moving towards coherence. We are always moving towards coherence and organization and that social engagement system. And I know as well as y'all do that when you spend your life surrounded by folks with really vulnerable nervous systems, that it's easy to lose sight of that. It's easy to forget that underneath all of that, that extremely dysregulated nervous system does want to find coherence, regulation, organization, connection, safety. It really does want to. And sometimes it's hard to, you know, hold on to that truth. I really, really get that. So, yeah, there's this map that's like where we are now and where we are going. And that is about the totality of the information that we get from that map. It's kind of like the map that we get when we go to the trails by our house. It's like really that. It's like you are here. And then there's some semblance of the end. Sometimes it's just right back there, right? It's a loop. But I tell you what, sometimes I'm out there hiking and I'm I'm like looking at this map and I'm looking at what's actually happening in real life. And I'm like, when was this map written? Like a hundred years ago when the terrain was completely different. I mean, it's like it bears almost no resemblance to what I actually find when I am out there hiking. And I feel like that's the map of raising kids with big baffling behaviors. You know, the the in-between stuff is like, who knows? Who knows? But also, even if I go on a hike and I have some idea of like at least how long the hike is, I can bring the tools I need with me that could be helpful. In fact, only recently I was out with a friend, and it was we were taking a new trail, and we had no idea where we were going on the trail, and we didn't have great maps, and it wasn't well marked. And I it was like 4 p.m. And I'm like, well, the sun doesn't set until 9:30. So um we have water and um we have snacks and we'll figure it out, right? It was like I knew that we had the quote unquote tools that we needed to get to the end, even if it didn't go as planned. That's kind of how I think about what I want to offer to y'all. A map, some possible tools to take along with you, so that you have some things available for you when things don't go as planned, because of course they aren't going to go as planned. I really wish I could give you a flow chart. I really wish I could give you if A happens, then do B and then C will happen. And I also would love to like hand you an encyclopedia. Uh that's not the right word. Maybe it is an encyclopedia of like lying. When your child lies, does this do this? When your child is stealing, do this. When your child is screaming, do this. But, you know, stealing's actually the perfect example of there could be so many different things that are leading to that behavior. It there could be a regulation issue, there could be a fault safety issue, there can be a connection issue, it could be a combination of all of those things. In fact, the ceiling podcast that we have, that I have, really actually walks through all of those things. I think it is one of the um clearest examples of how we can't decide how to tackle a behavior just by looking at what the behavior is. We have to really look at what's happening underneath. So the stealing episode is episode 138. If, well, if you have a kid who's struggling with stealing, but also if you really just want a good, clear example of how, you know, the observable behavior is just a teeny tiny piece of the information. We got to get way underneath. I have another episode that talks to this as well. It's episode 222, lying, stealing, regression, and baby talk. That might be another one you want to check out. But listen, I wish as much as you do that, I could give you a flow chart. It would make your life way easier. It would make my life way easier. I could just hand it over and say, here, do this, and then things would be better. I mean, that would be awesome. And of course, we all know that that's not possible. Also, just to be clear, it makes a lot of sense to know that's not possible and still really long for it, right? You still really long for me to be able to show up in an episode and tell you exactly what to do and it fixes everything. Of course, I get that. And it's actually great practice to kind of sit in both spaces where knowing you would really love that to be true and also knowing that it's not true. That's actually great owl brain practice to kind of like hang out in that in-between space. But yeah, like a flow chart is gonna like tell you the steps to take and it's gonna tell you the order to take them, right? And it's also making the assumption that the same input is gonna equal the same output next time, right? Or if you um do if you say this script and the outcome is this, then the next time when you say the script, the outcome is still gonna be the same. And again, like I said, I would love that to be true. And we all know that it's not. We have to learn instead how to be with the terrain, how to notice, let's say, landmarks, right? We're looking at things like connection mode and protection mode, and we're learning that specific for our kid and ourselves. I mean, if you go to raising kids with big baffling behaviors, you are gonna see like bullet point examples of you know, owl brain characteristics, watchdog characteristics, right? That's chapter five. And of course, I do that also over in the new guided journal. And they are hopefully very clear in those sections of the book that these are just possibilities, these are examples, jumping off points. They're not a checklist. Not all owl brains look like this or do this, not all watchdog brains look like this or do this. Every person is totally different. So those kind of you know, lists give us a place to start so that we have a little bit of organization with kind of like what we're looking at, what we're dealing with. Then we have to shift back into being super curious. You know, we've got this list of owl brain characteristics, okay, interesting information. Then I turn my attention back to my kid and go, but what about this kid? And this kid's owl brain characteristics. And the reality is that discovering them is actually way more important than even knowing what they are in the first place because it is the act of discovering ourselves and our kids that is truly the healing experience, right? Way more so than just you know, knowing what the checklist is. Way more so. So we're gonna look at terrain, we're gonna look at landmarks, right? We're gonna hold this map and believe in the map. It's telling us where we're going, where we are now and where we are going. And it can tell us some tools to take along the way, right? That's what I put in like that regulation connection felt safety tools toolbox, right? For example, like if you have a WhatsApp watchdog, a tool might be compromising. If you have a ready for action watchdog or a um possum, there might be a sensory strategy that's really helpful for your specific kid, right? So we have the tools. We still have to stay very open and present and in the moment to help us be guided towards what tool and when. Of course, we know that nobody's stress capacity is fixed. How much stress capacity I have can frankly vary hour by hour, right? Like, for example, as I get closer to dinner time, my stress capacity starts to wane. One, I'm just tired, I've been up, and I've been working all day, but I'm also starting to get hungry. I've probably been sitting in my chair for too long by that point. So there's these things that accumulate and add up that shift our stress capacity. But then there's also that's also true on like a bigger picture perspective, too, right? Like we all know our kids have more stress capacity around certain experiences or at certain times of year than at other times. Okay, so stress capacity and this, you know, the space inside our child's window of tolerance is shifting pretty continuously. And we can notice patterns and we can notice shifts across the day, but we can also notice bigger global shifts. It's also true, and I'm not sure that I talk about this quite as much on the show, but that different states, different levels of activation, different watchdogs, different possums, they're actually pulling out, accessing, activating different memory networks. Dr. Perry actually talks a lot about um state-dependent functioning. And that's because the different state of activation or arousal. So in my language, like watch what's up versus ready for action versus back off versus attack, those different states have different capacities based on what's happening in their neurobiology in that moment, but also based on what memory networks are accessible during the level of activation. And the memory networks that are quote unquote like awake or online or being touched into are really varying pretty continuously. Um and there are some pieces of information that we could access that could give us some idea about what's awake or alive or online in our kiddo or in ourselves, right? In our own memory networks, but it's pretty fluid. And different experiences in the now combined with different stress tolerance levels are going to access or wake up different memory networks. Then that shifts everything. That shifts skills, that shifts what we can do, that feel shifts, you know, how we're interpreting things. And that kind of stuff's shifting all the time, right? The higher my level of activation, the lower my threshold is for dangerous stimuli. I think I'm saying that right, lower. Um, the more activated I am, the more I am likely to interpret things as dangerous that I wouldn't have interpreted as dangerous at a lower level of activation. And that is the clearest way to say that. Um, so again, that is wildly changing, that's changing in me. That's changing in me. It's changing in me as, you know, it changes in me daily, it changes in me monthly. It's regularly shifting and changing. I know that my husband has absolutely could say that he I feel a little unpredictable sometimes. And there are some times when something happens that doesn't stress me out at all. And I'm just like, ha ha, no big deal. But then there is other times where I'm like, right? My stress capacity has changed. That means I'm making different meaning out of what's happening and I'm pulling from different memory networks. What is also true though is that as humans, we are very, very, very, very rarely a soul nervous system, right? Almost always humans are existing in some sort of relationship. And even if it's not like an in-the-room, in the moment relationship, we are holding relational experiences in our memory networks, and they are being activated and they are being touched into in a very similar way as if that relationship was literally right here with you in the room in the moment. So there is always a nervous system and another one, right? Or a mind and another one, whatever language we want to use. The nervous system is very, very, very broad. And I think we're starting to use the word nervous system to mean some things that it doesn't necessarily mean. But two people, we're always a person and another person. And what happens next in my mind, in my body, in my brain, in my nervous system, depends on what happens next in yours. And I couldn't possibly predict that because it hasn't happened yet. And so when two people come together, there is this continuous unfolding that's happening that cannot be predicted. There's a constant impact that's having on each other. And because of our memory networks, we are trying really hard to predict what's going to happen next. Our brains are working very hard to predict. In fact, it's one of the things it works hardest on. And our brains are predicting what's about to happen next and responding to it before it's even happened. All of our brains are doing that. So it's this weird, almost contradiction where like the brain really wants to predict what's going to happen next. And in some ways, it's very bad at that because it believes it knows what it's going to happen next, and therefore it's more likely to one, evoke that, but two, see it in that way, even if it's not exactly what happened. So we are continuously shaping our own reality, and our experience in the world is continuously shifting and changing based on the moment before and based on the based on the person that we're with. Right. So it's actually this beautiful, amazing recursive experience. And I'm not sure I've ever used the word recursive here on the podcast. I work really hard to leave the jargon at the door because I don't think the jargon's real helpful to you. But I do want to spend a few minutes talking about the word recursive because I think it's really cool. Okay. So what does recursive mean? A recursive process is a process that's like feeding its own output back in to itself as the next input. Okay. So let's contrast that with something that would be considered a linear process, which is something happens, something happens next, something happens next after that, something you know ends, and then something starts new, right? This very linear thing where this, then this, then this, then this. In a recursive process, the thing that's emerging in the moment in time really doesn't even uh become that thing yet. Because before it's impacting the thing that's happening in the next moment. So the thing that's emerging is impacting what is happening next, it's creating itself. Okay, so let me give you an example of this. So my own nervous system shapes how I even read somebody else's nervous system and make meaning out of their behavior. So let's just keep the let's keep talking about parenting. My own nervous system impacts how I am reading what my child is doing. My own nervous system doesn't just impact how I'm responding to my child, but it impacts the sense I'm making out of it, like the perception I'm making out of it. Okay, so then I'm like making sense of what my kid is doing, right? I'm perceiving it. And in that process, I'm responding and giving information into the experience, right? The experience between me and my kid. I'm responding, that's giving information into it. And my child's nervous system is doing something next that's based on what they read from me.

unknown 25:47

So

SPEAKER_00 25:47

So the experience is creating itself by feeding that output back into the system. And then that is impacting what's gonna happen next. So that's what recursive means. And I just think it's so remarkable. I just think it's so remarkable and actually sort of mind-blowing when I think of it that way. When I think of how we have no idea what's about to happen next. And part of what's about to happen next happens because of my contribution to the moment before. And it how I am interpreting something happening is impacting that thing actually happening or not. I mean, I don't know. I think it's awesome in that like big, holy moly kind of way. So, so the relationship between the this experience between me and my kid, right? We're not just going back and forth. It's not me than him, then me, then him, then me, then him. It's this like constant loop and feeding in of what's happening to impact the thing that's gonna happen next. This is a hundred percent happening in the therapy room, too. And when I'm working with therapists, or just we're actually working with the professionals, especially like in the immersion program, who they're not all therapists, it's uh something we're really paying attention to and tracking a lot, right? Staying really present and attuned to what's actually happening in the moment between the professional and the client. And noticing that we have an expectation, we cannot drop our expectations, but what we can do is be more aware of what we're expecting, and we can become more aware of how what we're expecting is kind of coloring what we're seeing, as well as how what we're expecting is inviting that thing. And the more dysregulated a system is, the harder it is to see those things. The more dysregulated a system is, it's really tricky to hold on to your owl brain enough to stay with that awareness of oh, this thing that I think is happening, I think it's happening because of how uh the lens I'm bringing to it, how I'm seeing it. And I'm also probably contributing to what's happening. And in a way, sort of like making what I think is gonna happen happen. We do that. This is a very normal human phenomenon. And if we can stay aware of that truth, we can stay super curious in relationship, whether that be with our kids or our partners or our colleagues, right? When we get more dysregulated, we lose that capacity to notice those things. And so the more dysregulated we are, the more likely we are to just in a way be kind of like on this runaway train where this recursive experience is happening at such a rapid pace that there's no possibility to like interrupt it should it need to be interrupted. And so that's a very important uh phenomenon to work with in our in in the immersion program, because my immersion program students are, of course, working with highly dysregulated people. And my immersion program students, part of what we are wanting to do in our work with caregivers is help their nervous system become more regulated so that they can be more aware of this experience that's unfolding with their child, right? So it's this nested process of the immersion program, like gives professionals the experience in the container that it mirrors the experience in the container that I want immersion program professionals to give to the parents they work with so that they can then, you know, offer that to their kids. And one of those things is kind of our awareness of this quote unquote recursive process. I don't really even use the word recursive in the immersion program. Like I said, I try to drop jargon. But for some reason, it's been like exciting me this week. So I pulled the word recursive here into this, into this episode. This is super hard. It's really hard to stay aware and present and regulated and connected to our owl brain and our witnessing mind when we are with somebody who's dysregulated. And essentially, that is the most important part of this work. The most important thing I'm offering to my immersion program students is to stay regulated enough that you can stay very present with the moment-to-moment unfolding and hold the map without being connected to a flow chart. And I want my students to be able to do that with the families they work with because that's what's so benefit. That's so what's so powerful for families to be able to do with their kids, to stay regulated enough that they can stay present and then moment-to-moment unfolding, right? And they can kind of hold that map without believing that there's a flow chart. It's really hard, y'all. It's really, really hard. And it's why it's actually why the immersion program is so long, so that we can do that work over such a long period of time, because working with very dysregulated parents is very dysregulating. And so, you know, the students in the immersion program are often coming to me and saying, I feel like I have a lot of tools, but it's feeling really hard to use or access them. Also, it would be great to have some more tools, right? And so, yes, yes, yes. In fact, parents are almost always saying something quite identical, right? Yeah, it's great. I've got a lot of tools, but I can't use them because I'm too dysregulated. And so the immersion program holds the container for what I think of as this like really nested process. It's the same experience happening, kind of like all the way down, right? Program to clinician, professional, right? Professional to parent, parent to child. And it's all happening in this nested, connected kind of way. And because of the theory that we're really holding, so um that we're we're the theory is what's helping us, you know, hold this map with some assuredness that at the very least I know where I am now and where I'm going, right? Our theory is really helping us stay confident in our map. Super important. It's really important to be confident in your map while still being really open to what that journey is gonna look like. And when we're holding that map really solidly, we can connect to the truth that behavior is just a cue or a clue. It's just what we can see on the outside, right? That starts to give us some cues and clues about what's happening on the inside, right? And a neuron fired because of a nervous system state. And what contributed to that state, what created that state, what built that state, is not fully knowable. It's not knowable by parents or kids, ourselves, it's just not totally knowable. But there are some things we can know and can take into consideration, right? Which is, you know, part of what's contributing to our state is accused of safety and danger, neuroception. A huge part of what's contributing to our state is our level of activation and how we're making sense of things based on that level of activation. Another big thing is all of our memory networks, right? We can be, we can know all of these things without with it still being true that everything that's contributing to our current state isn't actually knowable. And when we stay really connected to that truth, it actually gets easier to stay really present in the unfolding that happens moment to moment to moment. Because we can release ourselves of the impossible burden of figuring it out. And instead of trying to figure something out, we can stay really connected to the importance of staying curious. Figuring it out's not even possible, and curiosity is so wildly more helpful. The moment we start to lean into certainty, we are stepping away from our ability to really see everything that's contributing to what's unfolding. And certainty, generally speaking, when I'm thinking about it through the lens of supporting my students and the work they're doing with parents and supporting parents, certainty is generally speaking, pulling us actually away from regulation and connection felt safety. Certainty tends to invite more of a watchdog or a possum state of the nervous system. So, because of that, we can hold on to the importance of holding that map instead of step-by-step directions or instead of a flow chart. Right. The map helps us with orienting. It offers like a compass, not a specific route to take. It helps us identify what kind of terrain are we in. Are we in connection mode or protection mode? Are we on the watchdog pathway or the possum pathway? Right. The map helps us with those kinds of things. And then from there, we can make some choices about the tools that we've brought with us and which ones might be useful in which moment on our journey. And this I this kind of language of maps and journeys and whatnot have been bringing more and more into the club as well. Like last month, I don't remember when it was, sometime over the summer, we did a workshop on like mapping our kids' nervous system. And we are working on look identifying really specifically what you know, cues of safety are cues of safety for our unique child. Right. And really, in fact, we're even calling it like map your child's nervous system. And so, um, you know, thinking about what do we know about our kid that gives us some cues or clues about connection or protection, or owls or watchdogs, or possums, things like that. Holding the map without getting tied to an outcome or without believing that we know what's gonna happen next because we don't. Right? We just never know what's gonna happen next. And if what happens next is like not good, okay, cool, learn from that, and that impacts what you do next, right? It's this constant emerging and this recursive experience. And I think once we really hold on to that truth, I I it's been my experience. And once I really could be okay with that truth, that I had no idea what was going to happen next, but my brain is predict trying to predict really hard what's gonna happen next. That's actually when things started to get so much easier for me. Because I truly started to relieve myself of the burden of knowing what was right. Because I was like, oh, that's not even possible. So, how about we just abandon that burden? That gave so much more resilience to my nervous system. So, even when the dysregulation around me didn't change, my own nervous system's relationship to that dysregulation changed because of my willingness to be with what's true, which is we have no idea what's about to happen next. As always, if you are wanting to dive even deeper into this work, you want me to connect with you about figuring out your map or your child's map, come join us in the club. Go to robanggoble.com slash the club. And if we're open for new members, come on in. And if we're not open to new members when you go to that webpage, then put your name on the waiting list and we'll let you know as soon as we are open for new members. We open and close periodically. So robingoble.com slash the club. And the club is the same. Like we can't give you a flow chart, but we can offer you a map. We actually do have these things called roadmaps based on kind of what specific thing you're looking for help with. Um, and they're opportunities to see our kids' nervous systems in a different way and to gain a variety of tools so that we can stay more present and in every unfolding moment kind of turn to a tool that seems like it would be most useful in that moment based on everything we know about our kid and what's happening and things like that. So Robin Gobel.com/slash the club, we not only offer you all of these tools, but we give you a place to practice them yourself because we are such a relational community. And so that experience I was talking about about like kind of that nested experience where the parent needs to be with folks who, you know, can hold their intensity and who are regulated and offering cues of safety, the club is a place for that. And it's been created really strategically with that intention. So again, one last time, Robingoeble.com/slash the club. Otherwise, y'all, I am going to be back with you again next week for another episode of the Baffling Behavior Show. Bye-bye.